[WASHINGTON, D.C.] – At a Senate Veterans’ Affairs Committee oversight hearing today, Ranking Member Richard Blumenthal (D-CT) took Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) Secretary Doug Collins to task on his failure to be responsive and transparent to Congress regarding his cuts and planned firings of 83,000 VA employees.

Following Collins’ testimony, Blumenthal said: “You know I listened to you recite those problems you encountered [as VA Secretary]. Not a single one of them will be solved or addressed by slashing the VA workforce by 83,000 people. Those workers on the chopping block fails to address one single aspect of any of the problems you have brought to this Committee—or that you encountered.”

Blumenthal pressed Collins to provide specific information regarding decisions around his past firing of more than 2,400 VA employees: “Are you aware of the costs that will result from firing those VA workers in compensation that has to be paid to them, when they have been wrongfully terminated?” When Collins failed to provide a specific answer, Blumenthal quipped: “You don’t have a number for us, do you? Because you haven’t calculated what it will cost to fire those workers, and then reinstate them when the courts tell you, as they will, that they’ve been wrongfully terminated?”

Blumenthal continued pressing Collins: “Let’s begin with facts right now. Will you submit to us – which you have failed to do – specific positions where workers have been fired already. Yes or no?” When Collins began filibustering without committing to provide this information, Blumenthal said: “Please answer the question. Will you give us the information? We’ve requested it again and again and again. What positions have you terminated, and what’s your plan for terminating in the future?” Collins did not provide an answer.

Blumenthal concluded: “You know you’re running out the clock…You can fill the air with words, but what veterans deserve is action and accountability. We’ve asked for this information repeatedly. You’ve said you are firing 83,000 people. If you fire the people who have been hired in the last five years, you will be firing physicians, nurses, surgeons, counselors, workers who are front line. You cannot slash and trash the VA without eliminating those essential positions which provide access and availability of health care. It simply cannot be done. You may give us a lot of verbiage here – but you’re not giving us facts. And facts are essential to accountability. That’s why you’re supposed to be here. But you’re not giving us the facts that we need.”

Throughout the hearing Collins would not provide Blumenthal and other Senators answers to what positions VA has cut; what positions they plan to cut as part of their 83,000 future firings; what contracts have been cancelled; and how many clinical trial treatments have been stopped. This was the first time Blumenthal and Democratic Committee members had the opportunity to ask Collins questions face-to-face since his confirmation hearing.

During his opening, Blumenthal emphasized Collins’ lack of accountability and responsiveness since being confirmed as Secretary by submitting a list of 41 requests for information and 19 letters of inquiry for the record that have not received substantive or sufficient responses or any responses at all.

The full text of Blumenthal’s questioning is copied below and a video link is available here.

U.S. Senator Richard Blumenthal (D-CT): Thanks, Mr. Chairman. You know, I listened to you recite those problems that you encountered. Not a single one of them will be solved or addressed by slashing the VA workforce by 83,000 people. Putting those workers on the chopping block fails to address one single aspect of any of the problems that you have brought to this Committee or that you encounter. Are you aware, Mr. Secretary, that the VA changed the way it calculates wait times in 2022?

VA Secretary Doug Collins: The information that I gave you is as of our current system.

Blumenthal: The information you gave us is deceptive and misleading because the VA changed the way it calculates wait times in 2022. In addition, because it begins in 2021 at a time when a lot of VA patients were coming back to the VA after COVID in 2022, this information is fundamentally deceptive and misleading. I ask you to go back to the VA and correct it in a written submission to this Committee.

Mr. Chairman, I ask that we enter into the record an article that appeared in the New York Times entitled “What Elon Musk Didn’t Budget For: Firing Workers Costs Money Too.” Are you aware of the costs that will result from firing those VA workers in compensation that has to be paid to them when they have been wrongfully terminated?

Collins: Well, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Ranking Member, if you look at that from our perspective, there’s costs to, moving forward, there’s been some issues here, I think one of the biggest things—

Blumenthal: You don’t have a number for us, do you?

Collins: No, because we haven’t—

Blumenthal: Because you haven’t calculated what it will cost to fire those workers and then reinstate them when the courts tell you, as they will, that they have been wrongfully terminated.

Collins: We are talking about less than one half of one percent, Mr. Ranking Member. You’ve thrown out numbers of thousands. This is exactly what I’m fighting against. When you use numbers that are not true.

Blumenthal: It may be a small part of your workforce, but they are the physicians, they are the surgeons—

Collins: No, no. Ranking Member I will not let you do that. I will not let you sit here and scare my veterans, and scare my employees because there has been no—I mean you must have stuff that, again, you’re looking at, making a prediction in the future, because no one has discussed firing doctors or firing nurses. We have always said that we are going to keep frontline healthcare. Now, if we want to continue this message that these are out there when you have no knowledge of what you’ve just said, except peculation.

Blumenthal: Let’s begin with facts right now.

Collins: That is facts.

Blumenthal: Will you submit to us, which you have failed to do, specific positions where workers have been fired already?

Collins: At this point in time—

Blumenthal: Yes or no.

Collins: We have submitted to that, you know you also said something that I need to address real quickly.

Blumenthal: Now wait a second, please answer my question. Will you give us the information? We have requested it again and again and again. What positions have you terminated, and what is your plan for terminating in the future?

Collins: Okay, first off, we will get you that information. Our staff will check back. With the plans for the future, this is an interesting thing. I think what we’re trying to do here is we’re going through a process which I talked about in my opening statement that deals with career employees, it deals with professional staff and others outside consultants to see what is the proper size for our VA.

Blumenthal: You know, you are running out the clock. I know what the tactic is. We both know because you have served in the United States Congress too. You can fill the air with words. What veterans deserve is action and accountability. We have asked for this information repeatedly. You’ve said you are firing 83,000 people. If you fire the people who have been hired in the last 5 years, you will be firing physicians, nurses, surgeons, counselors, workers who are frontline. You cannot slash and trash the VA without eliminating those essential positions which provide access and availability of healthcare. It simply cannot be done. And you may give us a lot of verbiage here, but you are not giving us facts, and facts are essential to accountability. That’s why you’re supposed to be here, but you’re not giving us the facts that we need. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Collins: With all due respect, can I answer his question?

U.S. Senator Jerry Moran (R-KS): You may answer.

Collins: Thank you. With all due respect, there is verbiage being said from the dais as well. And, dais, I would like to say, as I have said already in this hearing, that there is a goal of looking at a 15% reduction. You have stated on several occasions already that I am saying we are going to fire 83,000 employees. That is wrong. I would appreciate that being corrected because that’s not true. I said we’re looking at a goal of how many employees we have and how many employees that are actually working in the front line taking care. I have doctors and nurses right now that do not see patients. Is that helping veteran healthcare?

Blumenthal: Yes, it does.

Collins: No. No, it does not.

Blumenthal: It does.

Collins: Not when I need those doctors in a clinic.

Blumenthal: A doctor who consults, a doctor who advises, a doctor looks at radiology reports—

Collins: You’re missing the point—

Blumenthal: A doctor who is overseeing and assuring quality, absolutely yes.